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From Mike Drob <mad...@cloudera.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Accumulo Bylaws
Date Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:15:35 GMT
Great input, Billie! I had expected that you would be able to provide more
ASF references than I had been able to find on my own. Responses inline.

Mike

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Billie Rinaldi <billie@apache.org> wrote:

> I have some issues with the proposed bylaws.  The main one is that it
> chooses arbitrary names for approval types that do not match Apache's
> definitions [1][2].  I believe we should stick with Apache's definitions.
> I also see no reason to change the general guidelines provided for which
> types of approval are needed in various scenarios.
>
> I hadn't seen the voting page before, thanks! I did an unscientific
sampling of other Apache projects and it looks like ZK, Hadoop, Pig, and
Hive all use very similar bylaws, including the approval types and action
types. This didn't surprise me, and I understand that we should still
follow ASF examples over Hadoop examples. However, I was interested to see
Ant have similar bylaws as well. Then there is another group, including
HTTPD, HttpComponents, and Struts, that have very different looking bylaws.
Most groups with bylaws look like one of these two templates.

I have no issue with dropping the "consensus" approval type to line up more
with ASF definitions. What do you propose the new threshold for revoking
committer/PMC be? I also have no issue with dropping the "2/3 majority"
(although Hadoop has an interesting spin on it; still lazy, but twice as
many +1 as -1) - what would be the new threshold for modifying bylaws and
accepting an existing code base. The code base situation came up recently
with raccumulo and that was never properly resolved, I think, so this is a
good time to think about that.

+1 on renaming to Consensus Approval and Majority Approval as per the ASF
glossary.
-0 on renaming Lazy Approval to Lazy Consensus. The glossary definition
calls them out as equivalent and like the parallelism from "X Approval"
naming. I think it is easier to remember.


> Another major departure in the proposed bylaws is that it gives committers
> binding votes in some situations, while typically only PMC members have
> binding votes.  Since our policy is for all PMC members to be committers,
> we don't need to alter the standard responsibilities of committers.
>
> I had been under the impression that committers should have binding say on
code change but no procedural votes. Turns out that is backwards, according
to the ASF voting page. I think this document can be written in such a way
to describe C and PMC roles as separate sets of responsibilities without
conflicting with our current notion that C == PMC. I don't know if we will
always have that be the case, but I can imagine a case where an individual
might accept the C invitation but not the PMC one.

Also, the described responsibilities of committers and PMC members are
> misleading in that they leave out (or fail to clarify) some of the most
> important responsibilities of those roles.
>

Just to make sure I understand: committers are stewards of the code and PMC
are stewards of the project?


> I don't have any particular feeling on whether we should introduce the
> concept of emeritus committers or not.  It seems the major reason for
> wanting to do so is to keep 2/3 majority votes managable, but I am not
> actually sure we need to introduce the concept of a 2/3 majority vote.  We
> could just use a standard veto-able vote (Apache Consensus Approval),
> perhaps with a longer time frame to ensure that everyone has a chance to
> weigh in.
>

If we drop "consensus" and "2/3 majority" as defined in the document then
we should also drop emeritus. I agree with your interpretation of intent.

>
> [1]: https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> [2]: https://www.apache.org/foundation/glossary.html
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Mike Drob <madrob@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for putting it in a Google Doc, Arshak!
> >
> > What issues do y'all see with this document in it's current state?
> > Personally, I think it looks fine and would be willing to start a vote on
> > it, but I get the impression that east coast weather has prevented some
> > folk from looking at it, so maybe another couple of days is fine.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 7:18 AM, Arshak Navruzyan <arshakn@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Oops, yes of course!  It's editable.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 7:01 PM, Bill Havanki <
> bhavanki@clouderagovt.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks Arshak! Can you either allow editing or commenting?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Arshak Navruzyan <arshakn@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Say no more ...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uR8vhIQcKGA6IEtbbF5D7UL_e6WGtfXMUQHp8Fwvg_E/edit?usp=sharing
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Christopher <ctubbsii@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps some ambitious volunteer could start a collaborative
> draft
> > of
> > > > > > Accumulo's bylaws in Google Docs or something, using ZK as a
> > starting
> > > > > > point. After it stabilizes a bit, we could push it to the project
> > > > > > webpage as a draft and vote on it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Christopher L Tubbs II
> > > > > > http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Mike Drob <madrob@cloudera.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > I didn't get that impression from reading their document.
> While C
> > > and
> > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > are two distinct roles, there is nothing stating that there
> > cannot
> > > be
> > > > > > > overlap, and the fact that there is 100% overlap is entirely
> > > > > orthogonal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Josh Elser <
> > josh.elser@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> This would change the existing Committer == PMC, no?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> That's the biggest thing I noticed scanning over the
document.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On 2/14/14, 1:19 PM, Mike Drob wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>> I think we should have some Bylaws, as that gives
us more
> > > structure
> > > > > to
> > > > > > >>> operate under.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> I propose that we adopt the ZooKeeper bylaws, replacing
all
> > > > > references
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > >>> ZK with Accumulo.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> http://zookeeper.apache.org/bylaws.html
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> What say ye?
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Mike
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > | - - -
> > > > | Bill Havanki
> > > > | Solutions Architect, Cloudera Government Solutions
> > > > | - - -
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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